36 Comments
May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Would an even greater chance of long term success or halting progress be a BTK + an ebv antivirals eg ATA188

Working in conjunction?

Based on a lot of estimates I'm hearing <5 years to market for the BTK. Would you think that's likely or too optimistic?

And is anyone doing a big comparative vs Tysabri / ocrevus / lemtrada etc?

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Re: "Would an even greater chance of long term success or halting progress be a BTK + an ebv antivirals eg ATA188"

Let's see what the trials show of individual agents and we can then do combination therapies.

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Re: "Based on a lot of estimates I'm hearing <5 years to market for the BTK. Would you think that's likely or too optimistic?"

Yes, 5 years is about right.

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Re: "And is anyone doing a big comparative vs Tysabri / ocrevus / lemtrada etc?"

Yes, MS-Base will have the data from real-world registers.

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Jun 2, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Thank you, Prof. G.

On a different topic, do you recommend that pwMS on Ocrevus who have had a decent response to the vaccine receive Evusheld? Do you have any concerns about risks (e.g., myocarditis) that may be significant but not yet identified because Evusheld has so far been given only to a small number of people (cf. the FDA’s information sheet on Evusheld). Neurologists in the US are starting to recommend Evusheld to their MS patients.

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I think the new Omicrom BA4 & BA5 variants are escape variants and evade Evusheld. I think the better approach with be to access Paxlovid ASAP after developing COVID-19.

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Jun 2, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

To their MS patients who are on Ocrevus*

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May 30, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Just a question I am 61 yrs old am currently receiving Ocrevus infusions as you have said 65 yrs is the cut off age would I be able to register for the SIZOMOUS trials and if so how would I go about it

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We need a referral to the Royal London Hospital (Dr Shamilee Gnanapavan).

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May 29, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Reading today the UCL findings related to Asterzenica vaccine for COVID 19 , finding a link to Guiilian Barr , affects ??

From the early Polio vaccine 1956 to HepB as given a midwife 1987 ? and Flu vaccines given annually always knocked me back for several weeks , labeled MS , medically retired aged 46 , COVID Vaccine 2021 knocked me off for 6 weeks , as did COVID brought home with husband from hospital discharge March !

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The association with GBS is very small and in my opinion is not a reason to not have the vaccine.

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May 29, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Your opinion on using Ixazomib and Ofatumumab TOGETHER? Won’t it be a really big hit depleting B cells and plasma cells? Treatment time 1-2 years let’s say?

I really wonder what the remaining T cells will do in this time period…

Seen some studies on bortezomib and Rituximab on lymphomas and their toxicity profile seemed acceptable, with Kesimpta and Ixazomib it should look even better

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May 29, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Could it be that the key to MAYBE putting this in remission is before our eyes in form of the combo anti CD20 and proteasome inhibitors?

Saw some experimental studies on even lupus nephritis with these drugs and it all sounded promising.

I must say, I’m very excited and maybe not very realistic.

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May 29, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

I mean, it’s very very likely that Ixazomib would deliver, but I have my doubts that it will do it that good alone.

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The aim is to use Ixazomib in combination with other therapies. Ixazomib is unlikely to be an effective monotherapy.

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Thanks for this post.

If BTK inhibitors prove effective it is likely to be 5 years before they are available. Are there any other treatments currently in trial which are seeking to address smouldering MS? Are these on the same timescale ie (the usual) “five years”?

Will BTK inhibitors be used as an IRT (short term blitz) or a maintenance therapy?

If a patient is on a DMT eg Natalizumab, can the BTK inhibitor (in 5 years time) just be added to their treatment regime, or will combination trials (DMT + BTK inhibitor) have to be undertaken to prove safety and efficacy?

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BTKI are the next class of treatment closest to being licensed. All the other treatments tackling smouldering MS tend to be in phase 2 except for simvastatin and Masitinib that are in phase 3.

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Re: "If a patient is on a DMT eg Natalizumab, can the BTK inhibitor (in 5 years time) just be added to their treatment regime, or will combination trials (DMT + BTK inhibitor) have to be undertaken to prove safety and efficacy?"

BTKi are being studied as monotherapy and will not be licensed to be used in combination. For the latter additional studies will be required.

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Re: "Will BTK inhibitors be used as an IRT (short term blitz) or a maintenance therapy?"

As maintenance treatments. MS disease activity is likely to come back once the treatments are stopped.

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Subject to these treatments coming to market in five years time, what, if anything, will prevent PwMS having access to them here in the UK and elsewhere?

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They will need to be cost-effective and NICE approved.

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Thanks, but I should have been clearer with my question: I was wondering about potential barriers such as age, or certain DMTs etc

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Thank you for this post, great to read some positive news.

Re:

'Don’t forget ofatumumab and teriflunomide had the same effect on brain volume loss'

I'd previously understood that anti CD20s have no effect on BVL and teriflunamide has a small effect? Clearly I've got that wrong. On the graph shown it does indeed look like teri is a touche better than ofatumumab. Not sure how ofatumumab compares to no treatment?

Be that as it may, look forward to learning how BTKi phase III trials go. So, they are:

evobrutinib RRMS n=1860

masitinib naSPMS/PPS n=800

tolebrutinib RRMS n=1800

tolebrutinib naSPMS n=1290

tolebrutinib naPPMS n=900

As you say, comparison arm teriflunomide for RRMS. Placebo for na progressive MS.

Sounds like Merck (evobrutinib) playing it safe and cautiously, AB Science (masitinib) keeping it low key and focusing on progressive MS and Sanofi (tolebrutinib) hedging their bets and throwing everything at it!

I make that a total of 6650 trial places (3660 RRMS, 2990 naMS) surely some of them will be in UK? Particularly excited by na progressive MS trials.

Interesting subtle differences in eligibility criteria re EDSS and age.

I wonder how the progressive trials will deal with participants with signs of active MS? Record info and carry on? How many participants may want to leave? Hardly ethical to remain in trial with 50% chance of placebo.

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

How do you expect the BTKi class to compare with Anti-CD20 across (1) relapse suppression; (2) immune suppression? Will BTKi be a substitute for Anti-CD20 or a complement? Many on anti-CD20 are concerned about long-term immunosuppression especially in light of COVID being here to stay.

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I suspect based on the phase 2 data that they will be less effective as anti-inflammatory therapies, i.e. on NEIDA, but more effective on smouldering MS (disease progression, BVL, SELs, etc.).

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Got it, thanks. How about in terms of immunosuppression? Are BTKi and Anti-CD20 likely to be roughly the same? And finally, if you’re right that BTKi beats Anti-CD20 on smoldering but not relapses, is it an add-on therapy or a substitute for anti-CD20?

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Not really clear to me which B cell subsets are inhibited and to which extend. Will it have an (big) effect on antibody production. The unclear effect it has on the innate part troubles me a bit. That said, i will take part in Perseus if I get through the screening and they will have me. Thanks for the letter

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Thanks a lot for this comprehensive review on BTKinhibitors in MS. It's really exciting for MSologists and patients with MS. I have some questions on the topic:

1) In these several trials, did they study B cells subsets after treatments ? Did they study the impact on OCBs in CSF ?

2) Are BTK inhibitors only targettinng pathogenic B cells or even normal B cells?

3) Is the therapeutic response with BTKinhibitors slower compared to anti CD20 ? If yes, can BTKi be a maintenance therapy after induction with more rapidly active treatment for the disease?

4) How does the drug affect the IgG level and How to monitor this ? Is it same as other anti CD20 therapies ?

Thanks :)

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1) In these several trials, did they study B cells subsets after treatments ? Did they study the impact on OCBs in CSF ?

No data yet, but they are being studied in add-on studies.

2) Are BTK inhibitors only targettinng pathogenic B cells or even normal B cells?

All B-cells. BCR (B-cell receptor) signalling is a critical antigen specific signal that B-cells need to survive and proliferate. So all B-cells.

3) Is the therapeutic response with BTKinhibitors slower compared to anti CD20 ? If yes, can BTKi be a maintenance therapy after induction with more rapidly active treatment for the disease?

Not sure it is slower in terms of onset as the BTK inhibition occurs quickly. One thing is that the inhibition is rapidly reversible, which may make it safer than anti-CD20 in terms of recovery of function. Not sure it will be safer in terms of risks of severe infections, because these will occur anyway.

4) How does the drug affect the IgG level and How to monitor this ? Is it same as other anti CD20 therapies ?

It looks as if the effect on IgG levels are small, but it is too soon to be sure. We need to know what happens after 3, 4, 5 and 6 years or more. I suspect the impact will be less than anti-CD20 therapies.

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

Thank you Prof :) You have helped to make it more clear for me . I hope this treatment will be promising for our patients

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May 28, 2022Liked by Gavin Giovannoni

What's the upper age ;limit for SIZOMOUS?

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My 18yr old daughter, RRMS, dx 2019, current on ocralizumab, doing quite well despite daily subtle symptoms is intent on pursuing HSCT in the hope of halting disease progression. Should she wait for BTK inhibitors? Will that be a safer long term option or should she bite the HSCT bullet, have treatment sooner rather than later and take advantage of an early diagnosis before too much damage has accumulated?

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You such a complex question. I have no idea if BTKi will be better than AHSCT and whether or not they will make it as a new class of MS therapy. There is a hepatotoxicity signal will at least two of the five in development this may still kill the class or at least pigeon-hole it as 2nd or 3rd line therapy. So better to seize what is available to today. As they say 'a bird in hand is worth two in the bush'.

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Thanks for your response. I guess I’m inclined to agree, which is handy as my daughter is set on HSCT. Thanks again, and that’s for all the information you put out, we find it very helpful.

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Are there local (St.Louis MO USA) that would have this available for me to be a part of testing? I am 65 and the number of times I have inquired about being part of a test group, my Neuro has told I am too old. Thoughts?

Barb K

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